(A straw man he has heard often) "If you believe in OSAS you will fall into an immoral life."
Is it possible your view of the Gospel is wrong?
CLAIM: We have everlasting life right now and it is EVERLASTING. Steve believes salvation begins when you die.
(Appeals to Common ground) BOTH of us believe in eternal security; the difference is WHEN does that begin? (Gregg rebutts this second part partially in his opening "I have entered into eternal life now.")
John 11:25-27: Jesus promises 2 things with only one condition of believing on Him: 1) He is going to [physically] resurrect the believer and 2) the believer is not ever going to die spiritually. They are secure eternally.
Other "never" clauses; John 6:35-37 never hunger, never thirst, never cast out JOHN 3:16 not perish
The condition of these promises is not endurance or perseverance but is believing on Him.
(KEY) "The key to this debate is the analogy of faith. I center on passages in John's Gospel which are crystal clear that he who believes on Jesus has eternal life. Steve will emphasize warning passages which are really warnings of judgment a) in this life and b) in missing out on eternal rewards."
2. Steve Gregg Opening Statement
It is essential to define what we mean by "saved".
(Error he once believed) "Being saved is about going to heaven after you die."
(Correction to that error) "Being saved is about being saved from SOMETHING: saved from your sin.
I do not believe that we enter into eternal security at death. I believe I have entered into eternal life now. The question should be "Does the Bible teach a)UNCONDITIONAL eternal security or b) CONDITIONAL eternal security?
a) Unconditional: "Once you got this, nothing you do can change it. Although before you were a Christian you have the opportunity to belive or not believe but once you become a Christian there is no possibility ... of passing from belief to unbelief." "You are stuck."
b) Conditional: "I believe we are eternally secure only by faith. A person can only be saved by faith if you have faith."
CLAIM: Salvation in the Bible is a whole package of a proper relationship with God. In fact Jesus "came to seek and to save that which was lost." Lost means to be alienated from God like the prodigal son form his father. Being saved is being brought back in the proper relationship with God.
Eternal life is often used in John in reference to salvation. I John 5:11,12 "This life is in His Son" - Having life then is having Jesus because the life is in Jesus. Being in Jesus is spoken in the Bible as being a conditional thing.
John 15:6 Vine and Branches: If branch does not remain then it is cast out. If the branch is detached the life is no longer in it.
Romans 11: Olive Tree: a) Unbelieving Jews REMOVED b) Believing Jews REMAIN c) Unbelieving Gentils cutoff
We must remain in Him by trusting in Him, by faith.
We are justified by faith alone and not by works. (KEY) Bob contrasted faith from perseverance, but Pauls does not see those as a contrast. Pauls said we need to "persevere in the faith". Colossians 1:23
There is no reason why Christians CANNOT persevere in faith. God will give every assistance in it. As long as I am trusting Christ, I am secure. That is eternal security but it does not presuppose a once saved always saved doctrine.
CLAIM: There are many who have departed from the faith. If you have departed from the faith, you cannot be saved by faith because you do not have faith anymore.
The concept of "salvaton" is a relationship with God. It is not just some kind of ticket to heaven that's given to some people and they cannot lose it.
3. Bob Wilkin Cross Exam #1
Questions Summary
What lead you to stop believing in "once saved always saved"?
When you did believe in "once saved always saved" what did you tell people they needed to do to be saved?
What did you say to people today what they need to do for "initial salation", or "eternal life or something"?
[Part of Gregg's answer to #3 included, "you must surrender"] Where do you get "surrender" in John 3:16?
What did Jesus mean in John 11:26 when he said, "Do you believe this?" Was he asking about her surrender?
How do you understand verse 25? "he that believes on me, though he die, yet shall he live"
[That resurrection] Is only if you continue to believe, right?
[NOT A QUESTION] If you have to believe continuously then you would have to live forever because if you die you wouldn't meet the condition of John 11:36.
If He says the one that believes in Him shall never die and you are dead and you believe on Him, will you die?
So you think he is talking about physical death? "he that believes in me, shall never die physically"? You do not think He is talking about everlasting life?
If a person believes if Jesus and they are a living human being, they will never die?
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